Attribution: Possibleuseful, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
Featuring the Fabulous Dadbots: Mark M., Dave S., Mark O., Dennis C., Paul C., and Geoff Carter
Bots,
We had a decent discussion on transgender controversies a while ago. Since then, the anti-trans movement has been ginned up to a fever pitch. This has mostly been expressed via a series of laws passed In various states, outlawing gender affirmation therapy for minors, and, in at least one case, for adults. Plus, we’ve had the successful Bud Light boycott, triggered by their association with a famous trans influencer.
(As an aside: This is the first political boycott, as far as I know, that has successfully reduced sales and profits at the corporate target. Past outrage-induced boycotts of Disney for having Gay Days have fizzled. But I’ve read recently that Target stores have suffered losses this year due to a backlash against their LGBTQ friendly “rainbow” campaign. So that might be two. Liberal groups have had success pressuring advertisers not to sponsor what they consider “hate” programming. If you watched this week’s debate on FoxNews, you might have noticed that there were only three sponsors: a gold seller; Black Rifle Coffee, which caters to MAGA; and a “solar generator” outfit packaged in a “Patriots” wrapping. No soap, cars, tires, beer, insurance, pharmaceuticals. The corporations behind those consumer products have grown wary.)
(Note: If you really want to follow my tortured arguments below, check out the articles & the podcast. But only if you want to. It’s a lot of reading & listening.)
My interest in the trans topic was reignited by the podcast “On the Media”, which featured a lengthy discussion of media coverage of trans issues in its recent episode entitled “Go Woke, Go Broke”. Basically, the segment gave voice to several left leaning media critics who feel that the Times is unduly skeptical and harsh on the transgender controversy.
A lot of it centered around a NYT Magazine long form article by Emily Bazelon. (I’ll supply a link below. It’s worth a read.) This article is about one year old, and is a very balanced and measured discussion of the controversies and disagreements between various medical practitioners who work with trans youth. These disagreements take on particular salience given the Right’s unrelenting attacks on any form of gender care. As practitioners debate differences in their approaches, critics leverage these disagreements as proof positive that gender affirming care is nothing but junk science practiced by quacks! And the article demonstrates a crazy level of nasty, personal, out of control attacks within the trans practitioner community.
For example: The practitioners putting together new Standards of Care (SOC) which, for the first time, cover minors, advocate for a full psychological work up of patients, and specify that the desire to go trans must have been expressed over some period of time. Reasonable, right? Oh no. Not so fast. Some trans activists are insistent: “The children are to be believed. Better a live boy than a dead girl. Failure to offer instant hormone therapy is tantamount to issuing a death sentence! These bastard practitioners should be mailed a copy of every suicide obituary!”
That’s a flavor of the controversies reported in the article. In the “On the Media” episode, the critics of the Times are singing from the same choir book. For example, at one point, author Bazelon referred to an early patient as Patient Zero. The critics are apoplectic. “How dare she! That is terminology associated with the AIDS outbreak!” (Never mind that’s what the patient calls himself.)
At one point, Bazelon quoted the gay conservative pundit Andrew Sullivan, who wonders aloud if some of this new rash of kids wanting to switch genders doesn’t include some kids who really might be gay, not trans. This is waving a red flag in front of the trans media critics: “Omigod, how dare this thought be given voice. It denies the existence of trans people!”
The author also quotes a trans surgery patient who had “top surgery” and now wishes she had her breasts back. This is not common, but it happens. The critics claim it should not have even been mentioned, because this person is not just a patient, but an activist.
The article also wonders if some type of social or cultural “contagion” is leading to the huge increase in trans identification. Basically, is it cool to be trans now? Again, complain the trans activists/media critics: “The NYT is doubting the patients and must be held to account!” But I wonder the same thing.
The podcast is worth a listen, as the Times editor pushes back effectively against most of the complaints.
Whew! Well, the Times now has a new article that is sure to be bashed to hell by trans activists. A small clinic in St Louis got overwhelmed by new patients & turned to external psychology consults. A whistleblower within the clinic has turned against it and claims quackery is being practiced. Republicans have pounced. It’s an unholy mess. But it reflects the actual state of confusion in this new field of care. I won’t synopsize any further. Link is below if you are interested .
Original article about Standardds of Care (very long)
New York Times: The Battle Over Gender Therapy, 6/15/22
Article about St Louis Clinic
New York Times: Transgender Youth, 8/23/23
–Mark M.
Jeeez. Trans issues. Awww man, can’t we just talk about the upcoming Packer season? Nooo, Mark M says. Damn…. Okay. Here goes. As s cis-gender male caucasian heterosexual of a certain age, I have to admit, the topic leaves me a bit cringy. I partly blame my vivid imagination for sending a visceral, skeevy sensation to my loins at the mention of terms like “penectomy” (the surgical removal of the penis as part of a gender affirmation surgery).
My better parts try to rise above such pubescent, hormonal trepidations. The anti-trans laws that have emerged from the growing fetid quagmire of fear, ignorance and political grandstanding strike me as worse than Jim Crow. I think of my kids’ childhood friend who is now transitioning–a cool, intelligent person who seems to know what they are doing. I also have a couple buddies (Mark knows them) who have adult kids who are trans. They both say their kids seem happier and more grounded since they transitioned. And might I just randomly add that I really appreciate that trans kid who works at Walgreens pharmacy, because they are truly the only pharmacy tech there who seems to have a brain–and is fast, efficient, smart, and polite–(living proof I think of a minority/outlier person who works twice as hard and twice as smart as their co-workers to prove they belong there). I ain’t trying to be all righteous, just saying…
But it gets so complicated, man…. When I was teaching high school a few years ago, a clique of five girls one day decided they were all lesbians. For a while, drama ensued; they were the center of attention; they held hands in the hallways, etc, but after a month or so, the attention waned and pretty soon their gayness waned as well. Somewhat similarly, an article in Psychology Today described the recent “sudden onset” phenomena that Mark M. alluded to–groups of teenage girls who rather suddenly feel they need gender reassignment. Should any reservations or misgivings about these childrens’ sudden need to undergo gender reassignment treatment and surgery be harshly dismissed and persecuted as “anti-trans”, “transphobic”, or “hatefully ignorant”. It seems to defy common sense and what we know of the fickleness of the adolescent mind.
I think I mentioned once before how a quick google search of “gender reassignment surgery” brings up a couple of articles from professional journals for hospital administrators. The articles describe the long-term profitability of the gender reassignment market. (People need lifelong hormone treatments, etc). I found it somewhat disconcerting how the articles went on at length about how big profits can be made from trans procedures — while barely mentioning how the procedure would affect the patients. I’ll try to find them again and send y’all links.
DC
Dennis: Just noting you did yeoman work on this a while back. About 4-5 links including the Psych Today one. Dig them out if you wish, but I keep all your emails, (not the other bots), in special place. J.
Below is fresh—specifically the filthy lucre aspect—had not thought of that. And good point on the Walgreens staff skills–why we need more immigration. I have a friend who oversees a few Walgreen’s here in Wisconsin. You should hear the languid employee stories sometime…theft, hours abuse, no shows…..even the pharmacists are a bunch of whining brats…(well many, not all).
-D.
Aha. Thanks Dave, I knew I was sorta doing a “deja vu all over again” thing with the trans issue, but I didn’t realize the extent of it until I followed your lead and dusted off the bot archives from last November. Quite impressive bot discussion there! Really. Since that thread from last year, Mark M. points out, “the anti-trans movement has been ginned up to a fever pitch.” And so that can of worms has been reopened for bot perusal. It kind of hurts my brain, but it’s good stuff,
Mark O.
Even Trump seems dismayed by what a hot button issue gender has become for the right.
So, of course, now the Donald is hitting that button harder than a lab rat in a cocaine addiction experiment. In those experiments, y’all may recall, the lab rat has two buttons to choose from. One button will give the rat a hit of cocaine and the other button will deliver some food. The cocaine trips all the pleasure triggers in the rat’s brain to such an extent that the rat keeps hitting that coke button and seldom or never goes for the food button. The rat soon dies of starvation.
Politicians pandering to the right keep hitting that addictive culture wars button for a sweet rush of immediate gratification. They seldom hit the less enticing, more nation-sustaining “running a government” button. Question: Will their political careers starve to death before they drag the rest of us down with them?
Another question, perhaps even an elephant in the room, goes back to sports. Specifically, women’s sports and men who identify as women participating in them. Should there be any restrictions or guidelines? What do you guys think? Dave, you have your finger on the pulse of women’s sports. Any latest thoughts on this?
It was brought to my mind because a couple friends who play on a rec. league women’s hockey team were telling me about a conundrum they were struggling with. They were concerned about a few trans players who recently joined the league. One of these women is gay, liberal, yada, yada — but she said her inclusive ideals were put on pause when she was up against a bearded, muscular 6’3″ person who identified as a woman. As she was being checked and slammed and pushed around by this player, she thought, “This is no longer fun; this is scary.” She and her teammates are conflicted. Some of them quit the league because they fear getting injured by the mostly bigger, stronger, often more aggressive, trans athletes. They want to respect transgender rights, but those rights are messing with their women’s hockey league. How does this get resolved?
DC
I feel that the trans issue is poison for Democrats in the same way the abortion issue is poison for Republicans, in general elections. Most voters are pretty normie when it comes to cultural issues. In other words, they believe in a middle ground, a middle ground that has largely been the field of play for most of their lives. A cultural field where abortion has been legal and accessible, mostly, and a cultural field where gender transition therapy has been legal and accessible, mostly. I also think the normie sensibility is not one that glorifies either abortion or transition therapy but sees both as unfortunate necessities, painful necessities. In other words, they should be procedures that are legal, accessible, and rare. The extremists in both parties are driving swing voters away from themselves. And yes, my belief is that the extremists on the trans issue are on the woke left. I suspect some dadbots will disagree, but I don’t believe the typical normie voter feels gender affirmation surgery should be freely accessible to children without parental barriers. Especially since children can be preyed upon by actors in the transgender industrial complex (influencers, activists, psychologists, therapists, surgeons, etc…). This is America folks, and every movement and organization has to be analyzed in terms of the profit motive. That’s not cynical, it’s reality. That includes the nonprofit sector as well, where the coin of the realm is career advancement, if not technically “profit”.
I can’t wait for the dadbot mob to dogpile me on this one! Later.
MarkO
What a bunch of crap!
Geoff: Recommend MO goes on probation.
Ha!. Kidding of course. I agree, and am informed by almost all of the above. Like the normie/middle ground…”safe place” voter construct. So true. Exception I take is to trans issue being same as abortion. Disagree there. Too new, too (downright) weird, to most voters. I think MM and MO agree “extremists” on trans are woke left and I do too…but it depends on what means by extremists. As Dennis mentioned the right can get pretty extreme too—but their motivation is not caring for the individual, rather, getting re-elected. So altruistic that way. And of course there are the profiteers on both sides of the aisle.
As far as Dennis’s question to me re the dicey issue of trans in sports: Well, Ironman has an individual category. Seems fair to me. Done, problem solved. Other individual sports should observe how that goes and copy it. Track and Field. For team sports—that’s a tough one. On the one hand, since a team the effect is not as pronounced. But I have no tidy answer. Don’t forget there are some “big boned” gals out there, playing many women’s contact sports—Rugby, Soccer, Hockey—even Basketball. I’ve also observed very slight phenotypes—on the male turning to female side and wonder if that isn’t the more common case. Thus not a factor in contact sports. The Crying Game, Irish art film, with pinch of IRA terrorism comes to mind.
-Dave.
There’s a glaring hypocrisy in the Right’s anti-trans therapy moral panic.
First, allow me to stipulate that most, if not all, gender therapy for minors is carried out with the parents’ permission, cooperation, and financial contribution. There may be a few cases where this isn’t true. But if Mom & Dad (and their health insurance) don’t pay, I don’t believe much therapy is happening.
The Right is extremely torqued up on the subject of “parent’s rights”. Why do you think there’s a mechanism to allow little Suzie and Ryan to opt out of that yukky sex ed class? Parent’s’ rights. What is the motivator behind the push to keep schools from using non-birth pronouns behind the parents’ backs? Parents’ rights. Why do politicians pass laws to ensure that 14-year old girls don’t sneak off for birth control or, god forbid, a smushmortion? Parents’ rights.
But these same asshats want to nullify the rights of the parents of trans kids to choose what they believe is medically and socially appropriate for their kids.
I guess parents’ rights are just like states’ rights A flag of morality and justice to be waved when necessary, but ignored when inconvenient.
—Mark M
Aye Ye Scurvy Bots,
Arrr. Do we needs to keelhaul MarkO?
How dare he suggest that immediate transgender surgery should not be granted to every middle school kid who demands it? “Unclean”, “Traitor”, “Burn him”, the woke mob yells! But perhaps a gentler road can be explored — maybe a re-education camp in Tim Curry’s Transexual Transylvania will suffice to get his mind right? Seriously though, entertaining as it might be, it wouldn’t be fair to pile on too heavily on MarkO on this issue, because, meh, I think we’re pretty much on the same page here.
Yes, I agree with ya Marko, there are annoyingly self-righteous extremists on the trans issue on the woke left. But do you think the woke left has the extremist monopoly on this issue? Are those pushing hard for anti-trans laws not extremists too? Maybe not. Maybe they could be better defined as political opportunists cynically fanning the flames of cultural phobias in order to advance their careers and enrich themselves. Like you said, this is America, and I agree with you that the profit motive is a key factor on both sides of the issue. Here’s an interesting research article for hospital administrators that breaks down the bright, profitable future hospitals will have by getting into the lucrative gender reassignment surgery business: The article kinda backs up what Mark M. says — parents’ health insurance is key to covering costs. So count on the AMA and healthcare lobbies to righteously go pro-trans and insurance companies to quietly go anti-trans.
U.S. Sex Reassignment Market Report
On the trans in sports issue–Thanks Dave! Great idea about individual sports following the Ironman lead. But then ah…yeah, no… kinda wishy-washy non-answer on the team sports issue cleverly obscured by cool references to The Crying Game and “Lola”. “Not a factor” you say based on your observation that males who transition to females are “very slight phenotypes”, i.e; they are a bunch of scrawny snowflakes who will quake in their ballet slippers when confronted on the playing field by the “big boned” ladies who dominate women’s team sports? IDK. Doesn’t quite measure up to the Deep Thoughts by Dave that we’ve grown to know and love.
DC
Comment re Health Provider’s in general and how they are trained, conditioned, sub-consciously or not…too hold a suspicious eye toward parents. Not fact-checking but I bet HC providers (and teachers?) are taught to look for signs of parental abuse. My brother worked as an RN in the ER and told me back of head contusions are one red flag. I also recall taking mild umbrage at the suspicious questioning by some in the HC profession when we brought our kids in for this or that. But, I decided, this is a function of the majority of cases they see and there is nothing wrong with erring on the side of protecting the child. Then last night I heard an extreme version of this: I was in and out of car and don’t have all of it precise but here it is:
A woman, wrote a recent book, some sort of health issues…couldn’t recognize own face in mirror…father relationship was/is complex—she was being interviewed and stated “then I learned that, overzealous/jumping to conclusions, HC professionals had planted stories in my mother’s head about my mom’s father sexually exploiting her as a child—which were total fabrication….and didn’t hear all of it: but it sounded like the author’s dad also did not abuse her—her issues were complex… Maybe one of you caught the whole thing, (ATC NPR).
It is these obscure stories that Ron DeSantis top of spinal column types love to point to and declare parents are being stripped of their god given rights…………………………………to molest their own kids.
-Dave.
“Improving the reimbursement scenario is also anticipated to positively impact the market growth over the forecast period”
Hey bots ((Hey bots)),
Well, in the words of my most articluate hero Yogi Berra, it’s deja vu all over again. Yeah, trans issues are reaching a fever pitch, fanned by far-right political opportunists who see an easy opportunity to create even deeper political/cultural divides by demonizing “the other” in our culture—as defined by Jacques Lacan in his Mirror Stage Theory
Lacan’s Concept of Mirror Stage
(That whole paragraph is deja vu, too).
We’ve seen the effects of this demonization in not so random acts of violence. Store owner Laura Ann Carleton was shot and killed (with a semi-automatic pistol—more deja vu) for flying a pride flag. This demonization of the “other” also extends to race. Look at the Dollar General shooting just last week.
This far-right use of demonization combined with increasingly restrictive definitions of cultural appropriateness and an increasing tolerance for and even encouragement of violence has created an extreme “us and them” mentality—and painted targets on the backs of trans, minority, LGBTQ, and left-leaning citizens. Even DAs, judges, jurists, school board members, and election officials have been threatened after defying far-right cultural norms—which are now conflated with Donald Trump’s political ambitions.
Internal infighting of the trans community aside, their rights to individuality and privacy, like women’s rights, need to be protected, which should go without sayng. I don’t think that the easy targeting of at-risk and marginal communities should be shrugged off, or even worse, ignored. Too many of our citizens are being terrorized by extremist groups on both sides with too few repercussions.
G
I don’t know how closely you guys have been following the Republican presidential campaigns, but it seems that Trump probably has the softest positions on sexual cultural issues (trans and abortion) than all the other candidates, with the possible exception of Nikki Haley. How scary is that?
It’s hard to say which issue draws out a higher level of hypocrisy from the far right, the “pro-life” or anti-trans rhetoric. As DS pointed out, one issue is newer than the other, by a factor of millenia, but it doesn’t take long for ideologues to drum up extreme levels of moral panic. It took only a couple years of death metal to drum up the satanic panic of the 80’s. Thankfully that panic didn’t have legs (although it probably just morphed into another one, possibly the gangster rap panic).
MarkO
I will give her credit for saying, during the recent debate, that women seeking abortions should not be “demonized”. But to my ear that statement sounds as if engineered by a campaign consultant. I guess you can tell that I don’t really trust her.
Nikki Haley’s position on abortion is “soft”, that IS true. But it’s an obvious effort to not take a stand and offend anybody. She, like Chris Christie, calls for the nation to reach a “consensus” before any federal legislation on abortion be passed. A consensus on abortion? That will happen when pigs fly.
Meanwhile, she has made some really disgusting remarks linking trans girls in sports to the elevated teen suicide rate. She also claims that trans girl in sports is one of the primary issues facing our nation.
“The idea that we have biological boys playing in girls’ sports – it is the women’s issue of our time,” Haley said. “How are we supposed to get our girls used to the fact that biological boys are in their locker room? And then they wonder why a third of our teenage girls seriously contemplated suicide last year.”
Whoa, that is pretty nutso. It would be more alarming if it weren’t so transparently spineless.
-Mark M.
- All of these positions taken merely to get elected, not because one’s beliefs align (e.g.: Nikki, even agent orange) leave me to sigh: Politics is so f’d up I don’t know what/why/how MM is so addicted to it. …but now I am too.
- Geoff always generates something 2 or 3 std deviations from center, I’ve never come across—that Lacan mirror theory. Interesting. What ‘bout the time before mirrors?, I asked self. Still lakes, I answered.
- We all agree the trans engine is going to require hearing protection. The rules are different these days—thanks to Newt, Rush, Pat Buchanon and now Trump—specifically there are no rules. No civil discussion. Vituperative remarks come out like the spray of an AK. In the middle of the melee are the trans kids—very tough time for them. Sick and ironic that Nikki’s vituperations will increase suicides. Nutso ‘en how. She should be ashamed of herself. I wish someone would type that in an editorial so she would consider it. Let it sink in…perhaps figure out a civil approach.
- Just like immigration trans is a problem to be solved, not yet another anger indulgence. Maybe that Star Trek villain that feeds on anger is out there.
- Half full: MO reminds us of similar phobic insanities—death metal. Perhaps the extremism will accelerate the trans issue getting to a homeostasis. I look back on LG and the decades it took for that to be accepted…Liz Cheney, a gay women, son of a far right war monger, who not only came out and succeeded on the right, but did it with a stronger spinal column than all other republican senators. Someday we’ll have a trans president.
- Random wish re the gang involved in the Georgia assault (on democracy and the 1/6 assault, (on humans and democracy). I want to see a chess board with either leader lines or better yet a good cartoonist putting images on the pieces. Here’s the roster:
- Pawns: various members of the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Qanon: Could also identify the time they are about to spend in prison. True pawns. The Times had a long video news piece patching together various cell phone and other pieces of evidence. I’m sure Liz C., Jack Smith and others have watched this a 1000 times. Easy to come up with 8 pawns
- Rooks, Bishops, Knights: (6): Too many to choose from there—all those lawyers indicted are candidates, but I’d like to see Josh Hawley or other “leaders” who flamed the fire that am.
- Queen: Rudy G. Be fun to put a dress on him, maybe take the image of him sweating like a stuck pig at that famous press conference.
- King: obvious…
- (and no Mitch M.: We need to be compassionate for his condition…we all could get there….no matter how much we detest his stands)
Perhaps too busy to fill out the white side of the board, but if you did: Jack Smith as King, Fani Willis, (Fulton county DA), as, a Black Woman as the White Queen. She will hopefully go down in history as the most powerful piece on board—since a non pardonable offense. Nice to see R Gov. Brian Kemp, (who trump tried to unseat last November, you may recall), supporting Fani amidst the calls to have her removed. You could name a few others for bishops, rooks and knights and then just circle all the white pawns as “Democracy”.
Dave S.